Denying the Evidence

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Denying the Evidence

Post#1 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:41 pm

Denying the Evidence in an Attempt to Eliminate the Evidence:

When I was atheist, I used to believe that there is no evidence for the existence of God.

Why would I blindly jump to such a conclusion? Why was there no evidence for the existence of God? It’s because I refused to look at any evidence that proved the existence of God, so that I could safely and logically claim that there is no evidence for the existence of God.

I didn’t want God to exist, so I refused to look at anything that claimed that God exists. Since I selectively refused to look at or read anything that provided evidence for God’s existence, I stupidly, ignorantly, and erroneously concluded that there is no evidence for God’s existence. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy! Of course, for me, there was no evidence for God’s existence, because I refused to look at any evidence for God’s existence. Duh!

After I started to sober up and started to try to think logically and open-mindedly, my biggest complaint against God was that He didn’t make His presence and influence obviously known. In my opinion, it was too hard to find God and know God. It just didn’t seem right that God would refuse to make Himself known in a clear and obvious way. I remember making this complaint a number of times. It took a long time to find out that I was wrong. That possibility hadn’t entered my mind.

It took a while, but I eventually started to realize that I had made no effort to find God, to get to know God, or to read anything that God has spoken and provided to us. I hadn’t done so for a very long time. Why would God want to reveal Himself to me in a clear and obvious way, since it was clear and obvious that I really didn’t want to have anything to do with God? God will force no man into heaven. Likewise, God will force no man to read His Books.

So, I eventually got over my fears and started to read God’s Books, the books that God had a hand in writing, and slowly but surely, I started to find God. These books exist, but I had to be willing to find them and read them. It was slow-going at first.

In recent months, I have been interacting with atheists online.

The first thing that they usually say is that there is no evidence for God’s existence. So then I start pointing them to dozens of different books that I have found and read that provide some kind of evidence or proof that God really does exist. So what do these people typically do? They find some reason not to read the book or not to look at the evidence that they have requested or demanded. They demand evidence for God’s existence, yet when you point them to the evidence, they refuse to look at it. They prefer to remain in their ignorance, just like I preferred to remain in ignorance when I was atheist. That’s fine, but then they should stop demanding that people provide them with evidence for God’s existence if they have no intention of looking at the evidence. They should simply keep their mouths shut and go blindly along their way as I did, because it’s stupid and illogical to keep demanding evidence when they want no evidence! At least when I was an atheist, I wasn’t an obnoxious atheist!

One person was demanding evidence. It was clear that he wasn’t willing to look at the Bible or the Book of Mormon, so I started sending him to books and debates from various PhD philosophers and PhD mathematicians. He declared them unqualified to speak. He wanted biologists. So, I sent him to some books and debates with various PhD biologists (atheistic, agnostic, and Christian), and once again he refused to look at any of the evidence or read any of the books. He found some excuse to reject and dismiss these people. He just keeps raising the bar. Then in his next postings he is once again claiming that there is no evidence for God’s existence and complaining that I have provided no evidence for God’s existence. Are you starting to see a pattern here? He’s being just as stupid and idiotic as I was when I was atheist – refusing to look at any of the evidence for God’s existence that was presented to me. But, he’s being obnoxious about it! He’s demanding evidence for God’s existence and then using the evidence that you give him as proof that there is no evidence for God’s existence. Then typical to form, he starts name-calling and questioning my education and parentage. Discussing anything further with him was pointless. He hates God and doesn’t want any evidence for God’s existence. He’s just trying to be obnoxious.

During the discussion, this person mocked me for trying to get evidence for God’s existence from a creationist website. That was one of the silliest and most idiotic complaints that I have ever read in print. Where else am I supposed to go to get evidence for God’s existence if not a creationist website? I’m certainly not going to find evidence for God’s existence from an atheistic website! Duh! Yet, this person keeps demanding that I provide him with evidence for God’s existence. Go figure! He doesn’t want evidence for God’s existence, so we all would be better served if he just simply shut up and went and did something better with his life rather than constantly making the claim that there is no evidence for God’s existence while at the same time demanding evidence for God’s existence. He was violating the Law of NonContradiction right and left!

While conversing with atheists, I realized that most of them have no concept whatsoever of what evidence truly is. They define evidence so narrowly that nothing serves as evidence and nothing is admissible into evidence when they are done. They just don’t seem to know or understand how evidence really works.

Take this, for an example.

Suppose you tell me that you walked your dog last night. Or, suppose that you write to me and tell me that you walked your dog last night. Or, suppose you tell a friend to tell me that you walked your dog last night. That’s a piece of evidence that you just gave me there. Even if we all choose to deny your evidence that piece of evidence or your claim still stands as evidence. By making a claim, it has been entered into evidence.

Now, I can do lots of different things with that piece of evidence. I can refuse to believe your evidence, and call you a liar, and demand that you provide me with better evidence that you walked your dog. You can insist that your evidence is true. But then, I can come back at you and tell you that I never saw you walk your dog, so I know for a fact that your dog does not exist and that you never really walked your dog. I can tell you that your evidence is false, and I can deny your evidence. I can tell you that you are stupid and uneducated for making such a claim. This is what people usually do whenever God finds some way to tell them that He exists.

Or, I can choose to believe your statement, and thus your statement will serve as evidence that you actually walked your dog last night. You can also provide additional evidence. Suppose that you provide a date-stamped video of you walking your dog last night, and I’m willing to look at it. That’s another piece of evidence. If you can provide enough convincing pieces of evidence, eventually I will decide that you have met your burden of proof and proven your claim. Keep supplying evidence, and I will eventually decide that you actually did in fact walk your dog last night. Your claim will have been proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

This is the way that evidence works!

Somebody makes a claim, and then that claim serves as evidence for discussion or consideration. We examine the evidence trying to decide for ourselves whether that evidence is true or not. Every piece of evidence, whether it comes from God or man, goes through exactly this same process. It does no good to deny the evidence, because that evidence continues to exist and continues to stand whether we believe it to be true or not. The claim has been made. Now it is up to us to decide whether that claim is true or false.

If you find some way to send me a note and tell me that you exist, that note or message serves as evidence of your existence. I can call you a liar or deny your evidence, but your evidence or claim continues to stand, whether I believe it to be true or not. I can come back and complain that I have never seen you, I don’t know you, and thus I know for a fact that you do not exist; but, that doesn’t eliminate your note from the evidence nor does it prove that you do not exist. It only proves that I’m being stubborn and refusing to look at the evidence or refusing to accept the evidence. The evidence still stands as valid evidence, even if I have chosen to reject it.

Over and over again, thousands of times, God has had written into His Scriptures the words, “I exist. I’m real. Hearken to me. Learn from me.” That’s evidence, written evidence. God has revealed to us thousands of different messages through His chosen prophets within His Scriptures. Each revelation from God serves as evidence of His existence. Somebody heard Him speak, or saw Him, or talked with Him, or walked with Him. That’s evidence of God’s existence!

What better place is there for God to put the evidence of His existence than in the books that He had a hand in writing? Can you think of anything better? I can think of a couple things; but I’m sure from most of the responses that I typically get that most other people can’t think of anything better than the books that God had a hand in writing, if they are truly trying to find evidence for God’s existence.

People ask for the evidence, and the evidence is there in plain sight! On almost every page of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, we have God saying, “I am God. I exist. Hear my voice. Hearken to my words.” It can’t get more plain and evident than that. In those books, we encounter people who have seen God, talked with God, touched God, received revelations from God, heard God’s voice, and walked with God. You can’t get more evidential than that! That’s evidence for God’s existence. God’s signature is on practically every page of the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. God claims those books as His own. Collectively, they serve as proof of God’s existence.

Is there better evidence for God’s existence? I don’t know, but some people seem to think that there is. Some people will refuse to accept the Revelations of God as evidence; but, they will accept philosophical proof of God’s existence or scientific proof of God’s existence.

I have been told by many scientists that the orderly and fine-tuned nature of the universe is proof of God’s existence. If God didn’t exist, then we wouldn’t exist. Somebody had to cause this universe and this earth to be perfectly tuned for life! Such a thing never happens by chance!

Other scientists have told me that the fact that we exist is actually proof of God’s existence. According to the law of entropy, none of us should exist! The Law of Entropy shows us that matter NEVER orders itself into living cells. Matter never orders itself into anything useful. Entropy prevents it from doing so! It requires intelligence and life to do that! Entropy and the associated law of extinction are the foundational laws of biology. The biological sciences and direct observation have proven to us that there is no such thing as macro-evolution. Macro-evolution is fictional. It isn’t real. This is what the real scientists have told me. The Law of Entropy prevents macro-evolution from being real. The law of extinction proves that macro-evolution isn’t real. We have never observed macro-evolution in action, because macro-evolution does not exist.

There are scientists who have observed that God has placed His signature and His handiwork into each and every living cell on this planet, for the whole world to see. The DNA in each of your cells is God’s Doctoral Thesis! The DNA in your cells is God’s programming code. Every programmer knows that elegant programming code requires a highly intelligent Programmer. DNA is the most elegant programming code ever written, because it was written by the hand of God and is more complex than any human being is capable of writing. God’s signature is in each and every cell in your human body. God has got His hands all over you and has signed His Name into each and every one of your cells. This is what the best and most intelligent scientists have been telling me.

I have also had PhD philosophers tell me that you, your personality, your consciousness would not exist without God. God is the one who put your spirit, your consciousness, into your physical body; and, God is the one who keeps it there. This is metaphysics, a philosophical form of evidence. Just because it’s philosophical or immaterial or in the mind doesn’t mean that it isn’t evidence. It has been entered into evidence, and you can treat it just like any other evidence. You can choose to believe that it is true, or you can choose to believe it is false; but, whatever you choose to believe, that doesn’t eliminate the evidence.

MarkMyWords
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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#2 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:04 pm

Darwin Bagley:

When I was an atheist, I used my ignorance as proof of God's non-existence.

That's what we atheists do.

When I was an atheist, I used my ignorance, blind-faith, lack of evidence, refusal to read and learn, and wishful-thinking as proof that God does not exist.

I used my absence of evidence as proof of God's absence.

In other words, I had to lie to myself and deceive myself in order to convince myself that God does not exist.

It was well worth it for me at the time, because I didn't want there to be a God and I didn't want there to be an afterlife. I wanted to die and cease to exist. I wanted annihilation. I wanted the atheists' ambition or the atheists' dream, to die and completely cease to exist. It was my wishful-thinking at work -- the pinnacle of my heartfelt desire!

I didn't want to be responsible to anyone for my bad choices and sinful acts. I didn't want to face God at some kind of future judgment day.

I wanted My Atheism to be true!


Tony Serrata replied:

Doubt you were ever an athiest then. It is not a belief system, its a matter of fact. All living things are born athiest, they believe in nothing beyond what is in front of them. With humans faith is something that is instilled based on circumstance. And considering your other posts that seem to make things up, I posit that probably are also making this up as you have other claims (that you never provided sources for in your other posts).


Darwin Bagley:

Do you really believe that? If so, then it's a belief system.


I have had children and dogs, and I know for a fact that each one of them was born with a unique personality. I have also observed that the children are born believing in God or having faith in God. The children only lose that after they have been conditioned out of it. It takes awhile, but you can indeed train theism or faith out of a child if you teach them to believe in nothing long enough.

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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#3 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:18 pm

Tony Serrata stated:

It is not a belief it is a fact. I even stated as such not as a belief, don't put words in my mouth. Noone is born believing in anything ergo they are born by definition atheist the point being they do not believe in anything that is by definition what an atheist is. Your lack of comprehension of this or unwillingness to comprehension shows the level of denial you and people like you live in. If you claim there is a god then the burden of proof is on you to prove it to us not the other way around. I claim nothing other than that you have no proof. I have nothing I need to prove. YOU however have a massive burden due to the extraordinary claims being made of god existing and all that.



Darwin Bagley:

Tony Serrata: No, it's purely a belief on your part, a leap of faith into the unknown. I have observed other facts, empriical observations, that contradict your chosen beliefs. Atheism is an organized religion led by the New Atheists such as Richard Dawkins. They have gotten organized now. Athieism is an organized religion or an organized faith. It's purely a belief system just like any other. There's nothing magical or pure about atheism beyond the magic or purity that the atheists themselves attribute to it. Atheism is no more sustainable than a blind belief in God. ALL the evidence supports the existence of God; but, there is no evidence whatsoever to sustain atheism. Atheism is simply a blind leap of taith into the unknown. I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist anymore.


Darwin Bagley:

Tony Serrata wrote: "It is not a belief it is a fact."

Do your really believe that?

If so, then it is a belief. I don't share the same belief, and for me that belief is not a fact. It's simply a belief that you have chosen to believe in.


Stating something to be a fact doesn't automatically make it a fact -- this I know and believe to be true.

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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#4 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:26 pm

Tony Serrata:

Again putting words in my mouth. This has NOTHING to do with personalities. I never said ANYTHING about personalites. Noone is born with a belief PERIOD that is a fact. We are ergo all born athiest by nature ALL living things are that is my point! I will just quote this because it's easier than trying to "reason" with your stupidity and word twisting. You have no sense of reason. "That's how people like you work! Your ego is so out of whack that it will do whatever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're awesome, when really, they're just douchebags!" -Kyle south park. I am done talking to you. You can get your last word in as you inevitably will but know you are just an idiot. I am not going to be polite about it when you are not even trying to see reason.


Darwin Bagley:

Stating something to be a fact doesn't automatically make it a fact -- this I know and believe to be true.


Darwin Bagley:

The fact is that God exists, and you can provide no evidence to prove otherwise. You are simply invoking belief and blind faith to support your claims, and I don't have to put words into your mouth in order for you to continue to do so. It's simply logic and reason. I know in advance that nothing I say or write will ever help you to see reason.

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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#5 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:33 pm

Tony Serrata:

LMAO really!? You really said that one comment after another? I posted a screenshot in case you revise your statement. Oh this is going to be a meme. You are a moron of epic proportions. I don't mind having a nice discussion by you are obstinatly stupid. And deserve to be treated as such. Either that or you are deliberately a trolling. If you are trolling then you are brilliant. But if you seriously believe the shit you just stated you are really really stupid. I am not sorry to put it so bluntly but I have no way to sugar coat that kind of stupidity.



Tony Serrata wrote:
"You are a moron of epic proportions."
"if you seriously believe the shit you just stated you are really really stupid."


My Reply:

That's simply your religion and blind faith coming into play there. Those are just your beliefs.

In fact, I'm really quite a nice guy. In fact, I'm trying to help you. But, it would take faith on your part to see that it is so.



Tony Serrata:

My only belief is of you being an idiot nothing more. I don't think that of most religious people, just the ones who think like you. I would respect your position more if you took the time to actually read what I wrote and not twist my words and even change what I said. You took belief and replaced it with personality.


Darwin Bagley:

I just took your words at face value and told you exactly what they meant, nothing more.



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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#6 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:59 pm

Faith and belief are synonyms.

If you keep pounding at it long enough and hard enough, eventually you will find yourself getting pushed up against the wall of faith. You will find yourself being pushed into exposing what it is that you truly believe. We will all eventually be pushed up against the wall of our faith or belief. It's unavoidable.

It doesn't matter whether you are atheist or theist, saint or sinner, unbeliever or believer, intelligent or stupid, inexperienced or wise, religious or agnostic, spiritual or profane, if you keep discussing things long enough, you will eventually reveal what it is that you truly believe. You will eventually be pushed against the wall of faith where you will have to make your stand. Everything you say and do will be based upon your chosen belief system.

Now, I have noticed that when it comes to religion and faith and belief, the theists have infinitely more to stand on than the atheists have. In fact, the atheists have "nothing" to stand on, so their arguments end up being very shallow and weak and their arguments end up requiring a huge blind-leap of faith on their part.

The atheists frequently declare things as fact that they have no evidence for. Atheists will often declare things as fact, for which you have many empirical observational facts that actually contradict the thing that they have declared as fact. Atheists take that blind leap of faith and declare as fact many different things for which there is no empirical observational evidence whatsoever. It takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a theist. People have actually seen God, talked with God, touched God, and walked with God. In comparison with that, the atheists have nothing.

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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#7 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:05 pm

After looking at this again and thinking about it some more, Tony Serrata, is right to complain about my focusing on the lunacy of his atheism rather than focusing directly on his faith-based claim.

Tony Serrata's original claim is that "all living things are born atheist" -- "this is not a belief it is a fact".

This is my response:

I have studied psychology in college and I continue to study psychology in college, and I have observed children (including siblings, cousins, my children, and my grandchild) in person all of my life. I know for a fact that Tony Serrata's claim is false. First of all, the Bible makes it clear that animals are able to see angels and God when we are unable to do so. Second, ALL of my observational evidence related to human children tells me that every human child is born believing in God. In fact, some of them can still see the angels and can still see God, and they don't lose this ability until they get older and God takes that ability and memory away from them, so that the test of life can then go forward in justice and fairness. Since the toddlers still have the ability to see angels and to see God for years after they are born, and have reported doing so, Tony Serrata's faith-based claim that "everyone is born atheist" simply falls flat and dead on the floor. Tony Serrata might have been born handicapped by his atheism, but that reality doesn't apply to any of the rest of us.

Since I know for a fact that Tony Serrata's claim is empirically false, then I know that anything else that he derives from that premise is simply make-believe or fiction. Far from being fact, Tony Serrata's claimed "fact" is simply urban legend and myth masquerading as truth. It's a broken cistern that carries no water.

Children are not just born believing in God, they are born knowing God, having just left God's home. I have observed that this knowledge and memory is typically taken away from them when they start speaking, but not always. Sometimes this knowledge and memory remains with them for years. As far as I can tell, though, this knowledge and memory is taken away from all of them by the time that they are 7 or 8 years old. Only the mentally handicapped will retain this knowledge or memory after they are eight years old.

Darwin Max Bagley

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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#8 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:00 pm

"People are learning to think for themselves and it scares the other people who are not." Neil deGrasse Tyson


Yes, we are learning to think for ourselves. Once I abandoned My Atheism and my Darwinism, I was even free to read and think about the books that God Himself had a hand in writing. Suddenly, nothing was off-limits!

You have no idea how liberating this is unless you have experienced for yourself. I was deathly afraid of reading the Bible or Book of Mormon. I could never bring myself to read the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price when I was atheist. I was afraid of those books -- scared to death.

When God and the Latter-day Saints freed me from the chains of My Atheism, all the fear simply went away! It was miraculous! I'm no longer running from God or trying to hide from God. I have been set free to read anything and study anything. I'm no longer afraid of anything. I'm no longer afraid of God!

I'm now free to read the science books that prove to me through peer-reviewed articles that Macro-Evolution is false. I'm now free to read any book that proves to me that Darwinism, naturalism, materialism, and Macro-Evolution are false. I'm now free to follow the scientific evidence wherever it chooses to lead me. The blinders have come off! I'm no longer being censored by my fears of God and religion. Oh, you have no idea how liberating that is unless you have experienced it for yourself!

I'm now free to confess my sins, resist my sins, overcome my sins, and repent of my sins. I'm no longer afraid to talk about my sins or to ask others for help in overcoming my sins. I'm no longer a slave to my sins! It's miraculously amazing!

You have no idea how liberating that is unless you have experienced it for yourself.

I'm now free to read books such as "I Don't Have Faith Enough to Be an Atheist" and "Stealing from God" by Frank Turek. I'm now free to learn those concepts and free to incorporate those ideas into my thinking system, philosophical worldview, and life. I'm now free to employ the things that I learned in those books within my conversations and my daily life.

The truth has literally set me free!

Darwin Max Bagley

http://ldssoul.com/stealing-from-god/

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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#9 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:03 pm

If you have had a child who continues to remember God and continues to see angels after he or she has started to speak, I would be interested in hearing about it!

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Re: Denying the Evidence

Post#10 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:12 pm

I thank Tony Serrata for bringing these things back to memory for me. Now I want to go and ask every young child if he or she still knows Jesus or still knows God. I want to ask them if they still remember God. I think the answer they give might be surprising to some of us.

Instead of being a near-death experience, this would in fact be a near-life experience!


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